thraxil.org:

Mark Boudreau - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:21:37

Sorrow is a good word to use. Add to that quite a bit of anxiety about what the U.S. is planning on doing. My worry is based off the propaganda that the U.S. has started spewing out. The U.S. might want to think about why 19 men killed themselves while trying to kill thousands of other people. Instead, they are called "mindless" and "barbarians." They are cast as "evil." It's funny, but bin Laden and his friends consider the U.S. evil. If you examine our imperialist past in the Middle East, a clear case could be made that we are evil. Whether it's the funding of the brutal state of Isreal or the continued bombing and embargo against Iraq. Retribution from the U.S. is justified at this point in some form. However, I really hope it is carried out in a way that punishes the guilty, because if it also takes out "collateral damage," then we'll plant the seeds for more destruction from the sons and daughters of the current generation. We may even unite many of the countries of the Middle East against the west...which would signal the end of humanity, in my estimation. *Sigh*

kurtis - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:22:37

I'll endeavor to keep this on the point (something I'm remarkably bad at). First its because of things like <a href="http://pain.outloud.org/gary/thankyou/">this</a> that I have such a wholehearted faith in humanity. I believe that everyone cares in one way or another regardless of how much apathy they may outwardly show. I also feel the complete rebirth of a sense of patriotism in this country is a very good thing. I don't agree with everything this country does and I don't agree with many of their policies, but I do love this country and it gladdens my heart to hear the cries of those that believe in this nation as well. I may not agree with the government or the administration ... but I love this country, this institution, and what at it's very foundation America stands for. Freedom. Over the years somehow that simple notion has been lost or confused. Partiotism before this incident was at an all time low, and nobody truly believed in this country. I think losing thousands of our people is too high of a price to pay for a renewal of faith, but I sure hope that considering the price we paid this faith can last longer than a passing fad. Needless to say while my faith in people may be high my faith in this society isn't so solid. I too fear for what this country may or may not do. Nato and the UN are supporting the U.S. in their actions so long as they have solid proof. I think that is helping to curb the majority of whatever damage we may do to those that would be considered innocent, but I'm sure innocents will lose in some way or another from this (look at how many already have). But I also feel that for many people their anger and perhaps even rage is justified. I was fortunate enough not to have any close relatives or friends affected by this, but were that the case then I'm pretty sure I would have plenty enough rage to swim to wherever those guilty call home and do the deeds myself. Nothing and nobody will convince me that those emotions are wrong or unjustified. Eye for an eye may be barbaric and can't change what has happened but until you have lost someone close to you yourself you can't judge that you'll react any differently. I certainly don't think I would. I typically embrace my rage if only in small ways. But then I think about all the belligerent Americans who are senselessly harassing muslims and middle-eastern descented people and I realize just how terrible some people are. I understand their anger and and agree with their frustration ... but apparently they don't understand how to vent it. They don't understand that hurting or killing one peaceful person, regardless of their descent or religious belief, won't do anything but strengthen the resolve of those that did this. It is unfortunate that some people are so ignorant. Not even stupid, just ignorant and incapable of dealing with their emotions. It speaks a lot to just how uncivilized many of us still are regardless of however civilized we may think we are. All I can do now is silently hope for tomorrow, because today isn't looking much better than yesterday ... and yesterday was a moment none of us will ever forget.

anders pearson - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:23:37

<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/09/16/national1809EDT0569.DTL">In Arizona, gunman kills immigrant from India; Lebanese-American station attendant also targeted</a><br />

emile - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:24:37

a friend of mine in india mentioned that this morning. its a desolate state of affairs. then she mentioned how superior india's military was to pakistan. everyone is a national these days.

sarah - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:25:37

Thank you anders. A lot. I've been sort of avoiding thraxil, being worried how things would play out here. Sort of waiting for someone to let me know which side of America things were on. I'll not bellow in with my spare change, but I'm more in tune with the pain involved. And though overwhelmingly for the victims and their families, also wonder at the pain that drove a human to do these sorts of things. And the pain that we, as a nation, have caused. Pain that we all, as democratic voters, have allowed our governments to do on our behalf. I don't give a flying fuck about the divine retribution that DW is calling down from almighty. Revenge and retribution is useless. However, blowing /bin/laden away, is perhaps not a bad idea. But not in the name of national pride, or Christianity, or capitalism. I just think that if someone tries to kill me, I should try and make sure she can't do it again. Nothing religious and nothing personal. Death doesn't scare me. I've lived through enough. But this is a sort of meaningless pain that won't go away for those directly involved. Sasm

jere - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:26:37

I wonder if we're all being hoodwinked, manipulated, whatever, into thinking bin Laden is actually responsible for this. At first, I almost found myself being proud of the restraint shown by our *leaders*, the reasoned wait and see until we know exactly who is responsible. But that's alll blown to the winds now; I keep hearing scary and scarier things coming out of these men's mouths. They don't seem to be hearing or thinking what they should: evenif they kill bin Laden, there are more, equally dedicated, equally desperate, equally willing to carry on -- IF that's what's going on here, which I ain't all that sure of any more... see my post...<br /> But, I won't wave a flag, I will not wear red-white-blue ribbons, I sorrow for the dead but ask myself if the country as a whole hasn't in some way deserved to hurt, the way we callously allow others to hurt, far worse than we ever have. I worry for my Muslim acquaintances (one woman tells me she was verbally abused in Wal-Mart; women have been allowed to appear in public without their head coverings for safety's sake); red-necks don't just live out in the boonies; we have been discriminating against anything that isn't white, male and European for a good three centuries now.<br /> I wish we would grow up.

jere - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:27:37

..and please, don't get me started on Falwell either...

jere - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:28:37

Food for Thought This is from Tamim Ansary, a writer and columnist in San Francisco who is a<br /> native of Afghanistan. <br /> * * * * I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone<br /> Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean<br /> killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,<br /> but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we<br /> do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the<br /> belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am<br /> from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never<br /> lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will<br /> listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt<br /> in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.<br /> I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the<br /> government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics<br /> who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a<br /> plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think<br /> Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in<br /> the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.<br /> They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone<br /> would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rat's nest of<br /> international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The<br /> answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A<br /> few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled<br /> orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are<br /> millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in<br /> mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all<br /> destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan<br /> people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone<br /> Age.Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make<br /> the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done.<br /> Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals?<br /> Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health<br /> care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least<br /> get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat,<br /> only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe<br /> the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too<br /> fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping<br /> bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this<br /> horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the<br /> Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true<br /> fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with<br /> ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be<br /> done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as<br /> needed. Having the belly to overcome<br /> any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of<br /> the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just<br /> because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to<br /> Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any<br /> troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us?<br /> Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other<br /> Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a<br /> world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.<br /> That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right<br /> there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem<br /> ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the<br /> West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those<br /> lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better<br /> from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West<br /> would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and<br /> millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?<br /> Bin Laden does. Anyone else? Tamim Ansary

Mark Boudreau - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:29:37

More interesting information that some of you may or may not have come across: <a href="http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2001/010913_mfe_binladen_1.html"><em>Esquire</em> interview with bin Laden</a> <a href="http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2001/June/Afghan/index.html">Interesting article about Afghanistan written by an Iranian documentary film maker</a> If you've seen these listed ad nauseum, my apologies. I just thought they were worth reading. Especially the interview.

lani - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:30:37

I heard something refreshing yesterday which solidified and clarified my own thought. My friend Tim's brother, who works for a pol sci think tank, said that he's been telling everyone that,"They not only hijacked the planes, but they hijacked Islam."

lani - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:31:37

sorry...grammatical errors...early tired...

lani - Sun 16 Sep 2001 20:32:37

I'd like to retract the last two comments, but unfortunately my hands are busy trying to remove my foot from my mouth.